We know that online dating is very much lopsided towards women. Women tend to get a significantly higher amount of emails/messages to them then guys receive from women. For example, it's not uncommon for an attractive woman to receive 50-100 emails a day versus maybe one to two, for a guy of equal attractiveness.I'm sure of this because I have seen the dark side my friends. Yes, I created an experimental fake profile of a woman on the Plenty of Fish dating site, and what I saw shocked me.
Let's take a look at what the "other side" sees.
[WARNING: a few days after doing this, I had both my personal real account and my experiment account deleted. The PlentyofFish system seems to have several methods for detecting duplicate accounts, so you may not want to try this at home]
Not long after getting the profile setup by loading up a few pictures of a female I grabbed from another site and writing a quick generic description, I was quickly swarmed by dudes who wanted to IM me. Seriously, the little boxes were popping up every five seconds. This annoyed me to no end, so I quickly disabled the IM feature.
I let the account sit for about a day and a half and this is what I got:
[click photo to enlarge]In a little over a day, I received three pages of emails from different guys. That's approximately 60 emails total! This is pretty insane considering that the woman was of average looks and my own personal (male) profile barely gets one or two emails in a month, let alone every few minutes as this account did.
So one thing we can take away from this little experiment is that, if you are a guy, you have A LOT of competition for Plenty of Fish dating. Not exactly a comforting thought is it?
But Wait!
It does gets better. After further analysis, the experiment showed that despite a tremendous amount of competition, a large majority of those guys, like 95% of them, are pathetic when it comes to online dating. Thus the competition is also weak.
The most notable weakness is the lack of any thought into how they initiate contact with a female on Plenty of Fish. If you look at the above screen shot again you'll notice that a large number of subject lines are simply lines like this: "Hey", "Hey there", "Hello" or "Hi."
A quick count through all of the subject lines gives me a total of 39 guys out of 60 who sent an email with some variation of "Hi" in the subject line. That's 65%! On top of that, the remainder subject lines were either really lame, rude or vulgar.
Now lets take a second and put ourselves in the shoes of this woman. If you are a busy attractive female and are receiving 60 emails a day from random men, whose email are you more likely to open? The ones that all say the same thing in the subject line or that one message with something clever, intriguing or at least different than a simple "Hey"?
Keep this in mind, as the next post about POF email messages, will examine the body of the messages that were sent to the experimental account and trust me, they're not pretty...
13 comments:
interesting stats Matt..
I thought the situation would have been reversed..
maybe the males need a lesson in how to write a unique greeting ;)
Kim,
I take it you've never used plentyoffish.com before, you'd be surprised at some of the drivel that guys are writing. I honestly couldn't believe some of the messages that my fake female profile received, it seriously made me realize how pathetic most of the members of my gender are...
Yep, very few guys are able to find the sweet spot using email/text. Sure, if you got a lot going for you you can get away with pretty much anything but very few guys are actually that good.
The crappy messages are easy to discount. These are generally guys taking a long shot or are already in a defeated state.
The other type of messages are the ones professing some form of attachment or heavy attraction in the first message ... to a picture on the screen no less.
The best approach is to only send messages (initial) when you're in a confident fun mode and just keep it at conversation starter level and be a little playful.
Geez, you only have to do that for a little while and you will build up a pretty good selection of pr4ecanned messages to choose from after a while ... from there it is just point and shoot.
Anonymous,
You're right and it seems that if guys would just practice on their writing skills a bit and learn some fundamental aspects of attraction, it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. Because the competition between other males on the site are so weak, it wouldn't take much to start reeling them in...
"it seriously made me realize how pathetic most of the members of my gender are..."
Nice way of being misandrist.
I don't know if you have some vested interest in POF or are a women-firster, but so far from what I've gleaned from your blog here, you are both from what I've gathered.
Secondly, by employing a fake female profile to lure men in to garnering the response you are seeking, you are practicing DECEPTION. Since your tonality seems to be rooted in some form of moral higher ground, it does not bode well or give credibility to your little experiment. Plus, did you gear your profile to receive the responses you wanted? This is also manipulative and only serves to prove you right, not permit a less biased outcome.
You also went against POF policy by posting more than one profile, but hey, I'll let you off the hook for that one. Obviously, they did not.
You say that the competition between men is weak. In actuality, women have the pick of the lot at POF and other sites because the ratio of men to women is in their favor. Women can be afforded to be picky, snotty, arbitrary, and judgmental because they have a slew of men's profiles to select, and many are simply attention mongers that rarely meet men in person.
And from (what I gather) from other men's complaints, men are usually curt about contacting women because they know that a long essay length introduction doesn't usually yield a response---why waste time and energy into something that gives minimum attention? That's being practical and direct, not dancing around the issue.
BTW, I used to be on POF, and the PMs I received from women could be just as under-educated sounding as men. It was uncommon that one would write a meaningful and well written letter. I kid you not, one woman completely skirted my profile detail that I didn't want to see someone overweight as she was obese, and her PM was simply "Hi." That's it.
I seriously question your defense of POF.
Wytchfinde
Anonymous,
First, to call me a misandrist is a bit out of line. I am certainly not a hater of the male sex and the purpose of this blog is to actually help males have a better online dating experience. Nor do I have any vested interest in PlentyofFish, except for my own dating, nor would I consider myself a woman firster, whatever that is.
So, did I create a deceptive profile? Yes. Was it ethical? Probably not. To be honest, I don't really care. The fake profile was up for two days, men sent emails to the account, but other than that there was no other manipulation. It was simple act to observe the difference between a female profile and a male profile.
You then go on to say, "You say that the competition between men is weak. In actuality, women have the pick of the lot at POF and other sites because the ratio of men to women is in their favor."
You are correct, women do have the pick of the lot, but this does not negate that the male competition is weak in online dating. You are comparing apples to oranges.
BTW, I'm not necessarily defending or supporting POF, simply writing my observations of what does and does not lead to attraction and real life dates.
Plenty of Fish is the most eleborate software programmed dating scam that uses fake dating profiles of men and women along with a "software programmed AI" system that automatically does the following: (1) generates fake "profile views" to your profile so when you "log in" it will show you some "women" or "men" that "viewed your profile recently". #2 When you email one of the fake profiles, ie, to some "woman" you'll notice your email is "read" or "deleted" or "read/deleted" within a few minutes of your sending it even if it is 3:00 am in the morning (the software automatically generates the "read/deleted" etc randomly to seem like a real person) is reading the message but it is not. It is just setting flags in a database - this explains why you email dozens of people yet get no "response" when you should be a perfect match for the women/man. #3 They used an automated method to "generate" fake profiles by "scraping" data from other dating sites, e.g. a computer program runs and hits specific dating sites, reads the profiles and adds the "member" to the POF database. #4 You'll notice that most women that email you are the ugly ones (the real members) #5 The big question for Markus Frind is (if his site is not fake) ... "Markus, please tell us how you went from 1 member to 10 Million members in a span of a few years with no investor money?"
Anonymous (above),
I can understand your frustration and why you would believe the above accusations. It does seem that there are definitely some sketch dating sites out there who inflate their member numbers with fake profiles and the like. I wouldn't be surprised if this was done in the beginning to get the site rolling, but I find it hard to believe that it occurs today, simply because I've read tons of blog posts by women who vent their frustrations about the poor quality of men on the site. I'm lead to believe that guys aren't getting responses for the same reasons they don't get dates in real life. They're just not displaying the kind of attraction that women are looking for.
As far as the site growing to 10 million members, it is because of publicity. Markus and POF have gotten tons of publicity throughout the blogoshpere and mainstream media, which would account for massive growth in numbers. Though I doubt that most members are active on the site.
Do you have any proof of your above accusations?
What publicity? I know all about dating sites, I've worked on them. Viral marketing is not as "easy" and "slam dunk" as people think. POF started in 2001 and even in the quiet times it was rampantly suspect of fake profiles. In addition, how many more men like you "created fake womens profiles" so there's another batch of "fake women" for men to email and to be eventually "unread/deleted" by the automated system eventually either once your account is suspended or what happens is the fake account you created is "suspended" and automatically becomes a AI profile. Think about it... all of these sites, MySpace, Facebook, POF do you really THINK they want to "lose" profiles...? No, they never do, that's why it's hard to delete them. They want the site to appear as active and plentyful of "stinky" fish as possible.
As for the new service for "paid" dating on POF, I've already seen people "subscribing" to this "paid" service on the "100% FREE" Plenty of Fish site. It's so funny. Hmmm... It looks like Markus Frind is going to have to change all of his marketing strategy now since he's operating a "opt in" PAID dating site (like the ones he LOVEs to bash)... How laughable... As it is no one is serious on the site, now he's finally "acknowleged" that by adding a "pay service" to "prove" people are "serious" about dating on POF...That's such a good belly laugh... hahahaha...
First a few months ago, he tried to launch a rediculous "feature" where the POF suckers would pay $10-$30 to send a "virtual gift" to the women that are already "ignoring" the men, then when that failed miserably to a huge backlash, now he launches a monthly paid dating feature just so you can have a "gold icon" next to your picture (and STILL get ignored) ROFL... POF is going to implode eventually. They already are running algorithms to operate the millions of fake profiles on the site, remember right on POF's home page Frind states:
"3. Our success rate, matching algorithms and technology is unmatched, we are the only dating site capable of generating matches in real time. At 26 my algorithms and their results were cited in the Nobel Prize of Mathematics (Fields Medal) paper."
Hmmm... algorithms... just like the AI ones he made that operate the fake profiles that don't respond to emails...
Also, another point that proves he's full of shit and fake profiles is this statement on your "Sent Emails":
"Hey if you see unread deleted don't be disappointed, some users (.01%) get 100 new emails a day if they have a great picture up. People like that don't have time to read your message even if they wanted to."
Right, so all of the dozens of average-looking, non supermodel women (the majority of POF women) that you emailed on POF are all the "(.01%) get 100 new emails" and getting 100 emails a day? What a joke.
I just found this article on the web about "paying to be serious" on Plenty of Fish:
http://dating.about.com/b/2009/03/09/pay-to-be-serious-at-plenty-of-fish.htm
Look at posts #7, #9 and #10:
#7 Don’t be conned. Plentyoffish.com is assigning those badges to profiles (only women that I know of so far) that didn’t ask for or pay for them. Some I talked to simply found them on their profile without being asked. Several women that I communicated with said they didn’t want them, when approached by Big Fish (presumably the site owner), and had them placed on their profile anyway. Emails to the site operators to remove them were met with silence.
It seems that PoF is trying to drum up business, particularly from males, by giving away these badges. I find that to be fraudulent as it is intended to be a filter: only those who are serious about finding someone would pay. “If you want others to know you are serious and you’ve put real effort into finding someone then you should get your serious member profile upgrade. Take a look at some of the screen shots below. Think about it, do you take people more seriously if they have paid for something?”
#9 Here is PoF’s response regarding my complaint about the women with the gold seal not having paid: “Free upgrades were awarded to random members chosen by the system that have proven to show regular activity on the site and good behavior. Users that we would consider to be Serious Members. Those that are not in agreeance with the label email us and we promptly remove the status from their profile. You can rest assured that after two weeks time, those users that do not see themselves as Serious Members are likely to have contacted customer service and downgraded their status, leaving you with a more defined idea as to who is serious about dating.”
#10 I showed PoF’s response to one of the women with the “Serious Member” who didn’t ask for it (and who has been trying to get it removed for a week) and she said “Wow what a bold faced lie.”
Interesting yes...? Hmmm...
“Free upgrades were awarded to random members chosen by the system that have proven to show regular activity on the site and good behavior.”
Sounds like Markus Frind is up to his old tricks again, now having the AI system upgrade the real female members and leaving the "fake" women AI accounts as "not serious" ...
Men are inherently logical and rational by nature. We approach everything we do from a systematic perspective, trying to find the most efficient way of getting things done. To ask or expect us to change is totally unreasonable; first, we can't. We are wired this way; our brains are biologically created to function in this manner. Second, it's offensive. This is a core attribute of our masculinity. How would you like it if men demanded women be less emotional? It's exactly the same thing. You can't help it, that's how you are.
This includes dating and approaching women. Men learn pretty quickly that there is a fixed percentage of women who will respond positively, regardless of the amount of work put in. Women are very fond of saying "well, if he just read my profile, and knew something about me, and wrote a real email special just for me, I'd probably be interested", but we all know that's bullshit. All you do is look at the picture, and if you think he's hot, you'll check the other stats to see if he meets all your requirements, typically that he's over 6 feet tall, makes six figures in a professional career, has his own house, car, etc. The content of the first email doesn't matter, and we know that. It's just to get your attention, if you respond back, then it's game on and we put some effort into it.
In days, 60 guys expressed an interest. How many of those emails did you read? How many of their profiles did you review? None, I would guess. These guys took the very real chance of risking rejection by approaching you, and you come on to your blog, AND MAKE FUN OF THEM?! Wow! You've got some kind of nerve on you. Instead of being flattered and complimented, you subject these guys to public ridicule. Instead of writing a post, awesome subject lines, you focus on the negative.
So, you've got a stuck-up, inflated sense of self worth, and you like to make fun of people who try to initiate contact with you.
Wow, what a catch. Please, if I ever send you an email, don't respond. We'll be seeing you on Craigslist Rants & Raves in about 10 years after you're past prime, bitching about how much men suck and you can't find a decent one.
Perhaps the problem isn't men. Have you ever considered the possibility that you really are a miserable cunt with a shit attitude?
Anonymous (from post above),
Dude, you are way out of line at the end of your comment. Did you even read the post?
First, of all, I am male, not female. Nor was I doing this experiment to inflate my own ego, which I don't think would be very effective using a fake female profile. The whole point of this was to show men the "other side" of online dating; to show a female's perspective of the PlentyofFish Inbox. So please, read the article before you start trash talking.
Now, as far as the emails that I received to this 'experimental' account, I did read them ALL and to be honest most of them deserved to be made fun of. Why? Because they were lame, crude and/or unoriginal.
I do agree with you, that the first email is only to get their attention. After that, it's mostly up to your profile to do the work. However, the key here is to actually get her attention which is a difficult thing to do when you are sending an almost identical "hey there" email as 60 other dudes.
First of all, Matt, I think what you're doing is great. Maybe slightly unethical, but it's way too amusing not to try. I made a recon profile yesterday. After 1 day, the profile received 40 messages. 39 of them had subject lines that were some variation of "Hi". The only one that was different was even worse. The subject line was "did I scare you". It was from a guy who had sent an earlier message that suggested getting a beverage with him. I can now clearly see why girls don't reply to the majority of messages sent their way. Only about 3 messages made any kind of attempt to comment on what was actually written in the profile. Most had nothing but a greeting, while the rest made some lame comment about appearance. I'm wondering if the messages would be better if I had put up a picture of a girl that was dressed more traditionally (the one I put up was in a bikini). I think most likely they would be about the same.
Although the messages I used to send from my actual POF profile weren't nearly as bad as the ones delivered to my recon profile, somehow seeing these messages must have helped me out because I've got 4 responses over the last two days, as opposed to none before that (I joined about two weeks ago).
Thanks for the good advice. Also, I think that you are doing a pretty good thing in some ways because you are helping some decent guys have a chance with the online dating as well as hopefully giving the women online some more interesting messages to read. It's not like you are teaching anyone to trick a woman into a relationship that she doesn't want. All you are doing is helping guys to know how to approach women online. The rest is up to the man/woman. Looking through some of your other posts, it seems that you have always advocated complete honesty in actual POF profiles. Keep up the good work. Most people will appreciate you for it.
Post a Comment